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Does god really exist? I say No. Debate me please?
Posted by Belgarath | 2005.01.05 @ 00:16
I thought it best to get this puppy started with one of the classics; I hope you don't mind.
People who believe in god (such as Christians) always point to the bible as a way to prove there belief structure. In church you are taught a basic summery of the core beliefs that initiate you into life as a god fearing christian.
The problem with this is they go against each other, essentially with the lessons taught by the church proving that god does not exist, and they are in fact lying to control the masses and gain donations to provide for themselves without the need to work.
For example you are taught 3 basic so called truths in church:
1. God is all knowing.
The basic lessons given to everyone who goes to church says that god knows exactly what you are doing, is everywhere and is always watching. He knows everything from the past, the present and the future.. even if you don?t.
2. God is perfect.
One of the most popular things told to everyone who has ever been to Sunday school is that ?God? never makes a mistake because he is perfect. No animal exists on a lark, everything is in its place. Like the platypus.
3. God has a plan/Nothing happens without a godly reason.
This leads up from number 2, and is often told to people in times of pain and suffering as a means of consolation to get people to be happy in there times of grief. It is also used extensively to explain how the world works or why bad things happen. Basically your standard excuse/reason.
The problems I see with this is very simple:
If your perfect you never make mistakes, and thus have no need for a plan.
The act of making a plan is synonymous with admitting - at least to yourself - that your not perfect and can mess up and make mistakes. So if god has a plan, then he can?t be perfect.
If you know everything in the past, the present, and the future and you do have a plan, then you already know how it turned out and have no reason for having the plan in the first place since you either know you will fail, or know that you will meet your end goal and so have no need for a plan.
So if you still make the plan or have need of it, then its possibly you don?t know how things will turn out. If you don?t know that then it is impossible for you to be all knowing. Even for ?god?.
Feel free to debate me on this, after all that is what this thread is about.
But I must warn you I have made several priests cry, one nun say yes to my idea we go out on a date, and given one southern babitist a heart attack with this train of logic.
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| First of all I agree with you.
That being said I'm going to play the Devil's (God's?) advocate.
You're seeing the idea of the "plan" wrong. The plan isn't a roadmap to follow, it's an ultimate ending for something you began. If you are writing a story, and you know what the end will be, and you have to start somewhere, then there has to be a logical path from one cover to the other. And depending on how specific your ending is, your choice of paths gets narrower. Now assuming you are omniscient, your ending is EXTREMELY specific, and everything along the way will have to happen a specific way to reach that ending, and with omniscience, you know exactly how it should happen. So it's not so much a plan, as a specific beginning that leads to a specific end.
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| I agree with Jon that the plan isn't a blueprint, but more of an ending to the story. When people talk about a "plan", they mean that God has a purpose.
Some others call it destiny.
Oh, and the platypus reference was hilarious.
I for one, attempt to avoid religious discussion. People have a need to believe in something greater. Breaking their beliefs is something I won't do, unless someone really piss me off by pushing religion into my face.
Once, I was riding the Atlanta subway (MARTA) and there was one of those street religious fanatics who think that preaching to train riders is a great idea. After seeing that I was not the only one annoyed by the man, I yelled back "Shut the hell up! People have a right to ride without hearing you!" Then a fat woman across from me said to me "He's right, you know? You are going to hell!".
This infuriated me. So I give her a calm, psycho look into her eyes anad say "Yes, I am. I was chosen."
Though I don't like to presume cause and effect, she curiously stepped out of the train at the next stop.
Emilio - Evil Be Gone!
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| RAOTFLMAO..
Yes but to have a goal still means you can mess up. And if 'god' really existed and had the power the church wants us to believe, then he could simply will that end result into being.
Since that has not been the case, then we are forced to assume he does not have that power. Thus he is not all powerful, or all knowing since if he was he would know a way to either do it or gain the ability to do so.
I may not know everything, but at least I can self educate. From what you are saying, then it would seem that this 'god' doesn't even have the power to do that.
- Belgarath
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| And then there's always this idea:
Perhaps God has to work within the "rules". Most (non-southern baptist) people will agree that the first half of the bible is just Christian mythology. So if you take the stories of Adam and Eve, and "In the beginning..." and look at it scientific record, everything has a natural beginning, except the "ultimate" beginning. (Chicken and the egg stuff). So God got everything started just right so that it would end just right. The Ultimate Goal, while being unknown to us, would presumably have been known to him the whole time.
Think of it almost like an ant farm. To the ants, you are omnipotent and omniscient. You see EVERYTHING that is going on, you created their world, you can destroy their world, you decide if they live another day. But you can only do so much. You can't press fast-forward in time to see the end result. You can't will into being a complete ant ecosystem.
But you CAN start the process off right so that your goal will come to fruition. And you do have limited control over the goings on.
And you spoke about the goal and the plan as seperate things, where a goal to an omniscient is merely the end result of all things, and now you say it is a plan. Make up your mind.
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| I'm an agnostic who wishes he had the faith necessary to be a Deist and is glad he lacks the faith to be an atheist. I agree with Emilio about not wanting to instill doubt in good people whose faith gives them hope, so long as they don't try to aggressively prostlytize(sic?) to me. For instance, I hope a certain friends' new beliefs keep him off crack and that he continues to read Harry Potter books, instead of burning them.
lowtech redneck
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| JonXP: But that goes against everything taught by the church. They always say god is all powerful, and knows everything. If he is all powerful he would not have any rules to follow, and nothing to fear if he overstepped them. Unless of course the pagans are correct and there are multiple gods, even if there was only a Goddess and a God, he would still have to worry about keeping the Mrs. happy.
lowtech redneck: Yes but what about the frailty of there belief system if that is all that is propping them up? Don't these 'good people' deserve a better foundation on the way they life then a feeble belief in something they can not prove is correct due to the exact nature of that belief? I think sometimes weaning out the weak and the sick is needed. I?m not a social darwinist by any stretch or means, but I think if a problem exists in somebody it must be fixed, not hidden behind a so called holy book that has its standard intro owned by a porn king.
- Belgarath
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| No it goes against what the Church itself teaches, but not what theologists teach. That's like saying everything you learned in first grade history is true. Believe it or not, you aren't an original thinker. You aren't the first person to ask these questions. When you have to ask harder questions you have to go deeper than what is served up for the masses for the answer. And in this, you can see a convergance in the two ways this thread is diverging.
Religion is a good thing, because it keeps the masses satisfied with a system of "right" and "wrong" that doesn't need to be explained in terms of long-term societal evolution. "God says it, so therefore it must be." works (on some level at least) for most people. They are shielded by their own hope for cosmic justice from needing to worry about the "whys" of law and order. People are stupid. In order for laws to be made, in order for something to be declared "wrong" then someone with authority has to declare it. If no person has that authority, then a being that does is created. Therefore, according to basically all religions, you will be judged when you die. And it just so happens that most things that are (or were at one time) bad for a society are deemed wrong, and most societies deem them illegal.
Religion is the opiate for the masses. But it's needed, and will remain, until such a time as people become smarter (unless, of course, something happens that proves a religion right).
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| Quoting Belgarath:
JonXP: But that goes against everything taught by the church. They always say god is all powerful, and knows everything. If he is all powerful he would not have any rules to follow, and nothing to fear if he overstepped them. Unless of course the pagans are correct and there are multiple gods, even if there was only a Goddess and a God, he would still have to worry about keeping the Mrs. happy.
lowtech redneck: Yes but what about the frailty of there belief system if that is all that is propping them up? Don't these 'good people' deserve a better foundation on the way they life then a feeble belief in something they can not prove is correct due to the exact nature of that belief?
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I don't think anybody is arguing that christian beliefs don't have logical flaws, especially given that they were created by error-prone humans.
Hell, faith is not a premise for any argument. Just imagine...
Quote:
1. I have faith that there is life in another planet.
.: Therefore, there is life in another planet. |
However, religion gives people less reasons to question authority and more reasons to follow the moral codes. This serves the purpose of helping everyone (at least within the same religion) to get along.
Back to the topic of a God, what we know (or don't know but question) about God is what religions have taught us.
Emilio - Evil Be Gone!
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| But how do we know these lessons are in fact a form of truth? We don?t. The church says that this 'god' fellow can only exist as the perfect know everything being they describe. IF he can not be like that, then he as described by the christian church can not exist.
Thus Christianity is a lie.
- Belgarath
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| No, once again, you are getting incredibly trite with your argument. You're narrowing down thousands of years of teaching and knowledge into one imperfect statement you heard in sunday school. The theory of the existance of god goes far beyond the teachings of a specific religion or church.
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| What I'm trying to say here is that although it may be harder to explain, the church themselves had tried to pass it off this way, using there own belifes and the bibles text.
So who is wrong? The church? Or The bible?
You need both of them to be true for god to exist as they say.
And please keep in mind I am not against a god existing.. just as long as there is a goddess as well. I am debating the christain version of god, not 'god' in general.
- Belgarath
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| though i defend the right of people to be part of organized religion, i dislike the church because it keeps people blind and/or ignorant of many things that the church deems taboo.
the argument based upon the overused "because God says so" worked fine for me back in elementary school.
i see the bible as a historical document and as literature.
Emilio - Evil Be Gone!
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| I see it more as a story someone wrote down a long time ago, and becuase the older population likes the idea of the world being where everybody does allot fo the things it says to do either out of there own fear or whatever, its something that was forced on the younger population adn grew out of control.
Think of it as a form of Meme called a Deamon, not demonic just self propigating and running like a deamon running on a server or something done via crontab every hour.
God = Group Overmind Deamon.
- Belgarath
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| haha...
what do you think about Homer and other classic authors' writings?
I see them as historical documents filled with metaphorical images and underlying moral code. I see the bible in a similar way.
Emilio - Evil Be Gone!
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| Belgarath, anything that can be proven (or rather, disproven) is insufficient for most people, probably because we are the only species burdened with an awareness of our own mortality. Faith in beliefs that cannot be disproven (anything concerning the afterlife) is the only thing that alleviates such anxiety. Any faith is the same in this sense, so what is the point of trying to instill doubt in another person whose beliefs do not greatly threaten other people?
lowtech redneck
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| Fucking with the Christian wrong happens to be a hobby of mine. Its my way of getting back at them for what they have taken from me personally and as an american. Once doubt is instilled in a person it can never be gotten rid off 100%, even if its not conscience doubt. By expanding the ignorant minds to other possibilities I am doing humanity a great service.
Christian values are destroying other countries, but thankfully america is not as hurt as some economically by it due to the high number of young unwed single mothers. Look into the 'population bubble' theory of economics and then tell me slutly woman are not a good thing for the american economy despite what the church says about the idea of premarital sex, for example.
All the kids they have in the future will pay for your health care when your old and senile. Everything is linked, if only by time.
- Belgarath
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| I think morality is important for a civilization.
In ours, it's coded by religion, because to the regular idiot, "i said so" or "do unto others as you would have them do to you" is not enough. They have to have a power beyond their own equals (police, judges, lawyers) scare them.
Therefore the concept of punishment in hell.
And it starts young, too. Think of Santa Claus bringing you a sack of shit for christmas if you're "bad".
Emilio - Evil Be Gone!
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| Yes but this debate is not about thinking in god and what it does for the world; I don't care about that. I am trying to debate if he really does exist or not, for good or bad.
- Belgarath
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| I can argue that, if logic follows... since religion is man-made... perhaps God is, also.
However, I can argue both ways, because I believe there is a higher power. It is illogical to think the Human race to be the superior beings in an infinite universe.
Call it God or whatever you wish. There has got to be something out there.
There is something about the theory of intelligent design that entertains me. It's the harmony, balance, and perfection of the universe.
So is there a God?
In my opinion, there is not a God as religions paint it. However, just because at this point science and religions have not discovered any tangible proof that there is a God, does not mean there is not one.
And you have to also add to your arguments that you have been taught not to believe in a God.
Emilio - Evil Be Gone!
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| Since I don't have a topic and the debate forum needs more posts here is my two cents.
God exists because the bible says so.
The end.
(jking)
(but god(s) do exist)
Good link Emilio. I'll have to read more on the Anthropic (Empirical) reasoning since its basically what I believe proves the existence.
Eggo Trip
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| Quoting Emilio:
Once, I was riding the Atlanta subway (MARTA) and there was one of those street religious fanatics who think that preaching to train riders is a great idea. After seeing that I was not the only one annoyed by the man, I yelled back "Shut the hell up! People have a right to ride without hearing you!" Then a fat woman across from me said to me "He's right, you know? You are going to hell!".
This infuriated me. So I give her a calm, psycho look into her eyes anad say "Yes, I am. I was chosen." |
I'm sure that was REALLY funny... I can even picture you giving that woman the "psycho" look. What happened to you taht day? Were you in your period or something? ;-)
At my signal... unleash hell.
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| Not really. Normal day. I was just tired of the same crap on the trains happening every day.
Any major city subway will do that to you.
Emilio - Evil Be Gone!
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| Were you asking if the Judeo- Christian form of god exists, or all gods??
...sometimes...
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| I'm pretty sure he was arguing about the Judeo-Christian god
Emilio - Evil Be Gone!
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| Just to celebrate a year since the last post on this topic :-P
Happy new year!
At my signal... unleash hell.
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| heheheh... yep. it's been a while since anybody has tried to convince us that God doesn't exist.
Emilio - Evil Be Gone!
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